Wednesday 14 September 2022

Analysis of the Hugh Gray Photograph

 


I was invited by the Society for Scientific Exploration to write an article on the famous Hugh Gray photograph of the Loch Ness Monster for their Journal of Scientific Exploration. This has now been published online and is available for viewing from their Summer 2022 issue at this front cover link. The article is basically a revised and updated work on a collection of various pieces I wrote for my blog over the last eleven years. Arguments have been added, removed or modified and hardened where they needed to be. 

Needless to say, like any picture claiming to be a close up of the creature, it has generated controversy from the first day it was published in December 1933. Unlike any other picture, it had no predecessor, it was the first claimed photograph of the creature coming about seven months after the Inverness Courier article which started the mystery off. Here we have a picture which has levels of details that others do not have, yet it frustrates as people debate what they are actually looking at. You may have your own opinion, read over the article and see if that opinion is confirmed or changed.

As a bonus, look down the journal contents and you will find a review of my book, "The Water Horses of Loch Ness" by Henry Bauer,

Comments can also be made at the Loch Ness Mystery Blog Facebook group.

The author can be contacted at lochnesskelpie@gmail.com




126 comments:

  1. Shadows lengthen and shorten according to the sun's position, reflections are a mirror image of the object regardless of the angle of the sun.

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  2. Added to article: As a bonus, look down the journal contents and you will find a review of my book, "The Water Horses of Loch Ness" by Henry Bauer,

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  3. Outstanding job, Roland. Succinct, clear, and with just enough detail to keep the whole issue in front of the reader through the various complexities. And indispensable exploration of this mysterious photo. Thank you.
    Steve Bastasch

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  4. Again with the Hugh Gray photo? Okay, okay so you're doing it at the behest of of the Journal. Well here's my take. I have always believed that of all the classical photos, that one stands the best chance of being bona- fidee. That's a long article which I'll have to read later. Probably way over my head in the technical details, but my gut feeling is that it shows an anomalous animate object. But I get the gist of your argument. Where I beg to differ with you GB, unless you've changed your mind in the journal article, is your steadfast contention that it depicts some type of over-sized head. I think you likened it to be eel-like. In my thinking, that would not conform to the small head on a long neck of the classic archetype for the LNM, unless you're talking about another type of monster.

    As for the monster on land photos, If I had to pick one as being genuine, it would have to be, hmm, let me see, oh yeah, the Ian Monkton "Roast Chicken" Only because that is the only one!!!!

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    1. Just saw on youtube last night a video on a leopard seal, can grow to 12 feet, not saying that is nessie, but the seal had the head and a longer neck and flippers. looked like some of the nessie sightings, could Nessie be an adapted very large seal. that os population that is going on and out of the Loch?

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    2. Yes, I would need to develop some thoughts on where that head fits into the picture.

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  5. Well, even the skeptics generally agree the photo shows a living animal. But it's not a dog or swan imo! I'd like it to be the LNM, but if not then it could be a close-up of an eel or something like that. Doesn't really look like any extant species I can think of, though!

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    1. Therein lies the problem with establishing conclusively whether this is an animal and in fact the LNM. There is no foreground or background to give scale to the object. Which brings me to think, couldn't knowing the type of camera used and it's focal length, field of view and all that, trigonometry and all that fancy maths, along with the known location of the picture taker give some clue as to the size of the object?

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    2. Ever since I've seen the closeup picture Roland highlighted under the caption "Is this Nessie Looking at You".....all I can see whenever I see that picture, is the head at the right..... Call it paradoelia or whatever, but, I do think the picture is that of a genuine animal. I also think Roland hit the nail on the head with his up lose and personal picture of the 'face'

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    3. looks like an eel head, or maybe a seal to me!

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    4. Hi Latman. I see the same, but I know that can't be true. If it is, it's one big eel, or dare I say, a giant salamander! I think we have been conditioned to see what Roland has suggested. Ah, the power of suggestion. And then of course pareidolia sets in.

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    5. It much more than paradolia..its reality of an animals head. The paradolia claim is silly.

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    6. Go to steve plambecks giant salamander blog..he nailed it , IMO,as 2 giant salamanders possibly copulating.

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    7. Well that's really silly too! Sorry Steve.

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    8. Anyway Poofy, Steve Plambeck, to his credit, does a lot of what if out of the box thinking with the giant salamander theory. That notion has been around for as long as the implausible plesiosaur theory. Both improbable in my opinion. What do I think a Nessie is? Beats the hell out of me. Some type of unknown, undocumented creature for sure.

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    9. A new entrant, is that Mr. or Mrs Poofy? Copulating? Are you serious?

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    10. I don't think Steve Plambeck suggested that. Our new entry "Poofy" is having a laugh.

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    11. I just checked Steve's blog and it shows a figure of one salamander on top of another to show two different aspects of the tail appearing as a neck and head with hump. Yeah, don't think Steve is suggesting there is whoopee going on there. Poofy has a dirty mind. LOL

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    12. A mister..and yes im serious..plambeck drew diagrams superimposed over the grey photo and it seems to show TWO creatures..and when they are together like that its either love or hate.
      Love your interviews roland.

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    13. OK Poofy, I'm sorry, but I have to respond to you again. Are you for real! Are you having fun at our expense? Lower class, primitive animals like salamanders, fish or reptiles don't have those emotions. They are driven by instinct. Plambeck does a lot of guesswork and supposition. You may as well believe it's the dog with the stick. LOL

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    14. Im not going to argue with you john..but when you do the same level of research steve plambeck.has done , then ill give your comments some weight.

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  6. Ah John, having you as our in-house skeptic, it is always a delight to read some of your colorful incisive, biting prose and witticisms. What a contrast to my inane commentary when I'm in the throes of a foggy state of inebriation. Keep up the good work.

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  7. An old famous foto indeed! But was there any more? Surely he wudnt just snap one foto if he thought he was seeing a monster? Did other foto's go missing?? Any more foto's to show where he actually was on the loch or even proove it was loch ness? That's what I wud of done if I thought I'd snapped the monster! I take it the other foto's have since gone missing?. Cheers

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    1. Gray says he took five pics. Only one showed anything after developing. The photo is cropped, like many Nessie pics which make it into newspapers.

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    2. Have u seen the uncropped version? Has anyone? Pity it's not available.. Wud be good to know its 100% loch ness! I know Mr Raynor had doubts about the location Mr Gray said he was at. It is an iconic foto of nessie though as it was the first.. It will always be part of the mystery!

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  8. This photo never did anything for me. I think its a small object/ animal taken close by. I believe Gray was evasive when questioned as to how big it was,and how far away.He also had sightings on 5 other occasions. No other photos? Amazing luck. Did he see any resemblance to what he photographed previously?
    Why only one photo?
    Does anyone else think the water ripples are reminiscent of the infamous fake "surgeons "photo .
    There's compelling testimony about large creatures in loch ness but this photo doesn't add anything to that in my humble.

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    1. I agree a hundy p with your issues: saw it loads of times and saw it on this occasion for several minutes but only took one photo. Highly suspicious. However, the image itself is intriguing and the fact that Constance Whyte found him legit many years later counts for a lot. To me this is still in the maybe camp. And I know GB swears by it which sways me a bit more too.

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    2. I'm with you on that one, Pm.

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    3. These are not issues to me. Where does Gray come across as evasive? He took five, only one came out.

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    4. Is the surgeons photo fake? And who said ot was fake? Is there an interview with the people who have said it eas fake?

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  9. Hugh Gray's other sightings seem unremarkable when described - bow wakes without visible origin, etc. If he was a faker, I suspect he would jazzed them up a bit. Statistically speaking a given individual should never win the lottery, but people do.

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  10. In the first segment, this guy says that he thinks the photo is a fake, also believes it's the worn out dog with stick. That once you see it as that, it is hard to unsee it. Well, how come I never see it as such? Must be a ghost dog. And how come only the "stick" shows up more or less distinct? Meh, everything is subjective and we see what we want to see.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4htQi4clTMU&ab_channel=AllTop5s

    On another front, Eoin claims another sighting on the new webcams. Nothing to see there but a slight darkening in the water. We've gone from blobs to smudges. Sorry Eoin.

    https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/watch-loch-ness-monster-spotted-twice-on-newly-installed-webcams/

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  11. LOL! I just saw the post made by Steve Feltham on the Loch Ness Mystery Blog Facebook group. He says Gary Campbell will no longer accept anymore dubious Webcam videos unless it includes "CLEAR FACIAL FEATURES. " This is all in jest right? What's next for Nessie ID card checks?

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    1. lol
      "It's me, Nessie the lake monster!"
      "Yeah right, pal. Prove it!"

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    2. Not sure what it means. The Gray picture here has facial features, lol.

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    3. So does the Rines "Gargoyle" head shot. LOL

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  12. Haha the mind boggles!!! I bet some of these people are fun ar parties lol .. Cheers

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  13. In my opinion, it is a magnificent work, interesting, well documented and argued. I see no reason why one should not go back, as many times as necessary, to any photograph or testimonial to analyze it from all possible angles.

    One more thing, my academic training is not scientific, but humanist, but I think I remember in the physics subjects I took in high school, that there was something called "viscosity coefficient" (or something similar) of liquids. I don't know if it could be applied in some way through photographs to try to estimate the size of objects in the water. I mention it because I seem to remember that someone commented that one way to estimate the size of, for example, a model of a ship in a marine-themed movie was precisely the viscosity of the water, which would make the drops and waves appear too large for what would be expected from a full-size ship.

    Perhaps it is something that has already been done, in that case, I apologize; In any case, I remember it that way or maybe this thing about boats and movies was something I imagined when the teacher told us about it in class... three decades, ago!

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    1. Wave sizes have been mentioned before in regard to some photographs, but only in a vague qualitative way. I have seen no attempt to quantify it into an applicable method.

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    2. I remember years ago some speculation that the head and neck in the surgeons photo could be sticking out of the water six foot if the waves were six inches in height. If we had understood that they were only ripples things could have been a lot different.

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    3. I think the surgeon photo might be real.

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    4. A real fake? You're not the only one that thinks that. There are Nessie believers that think it's "real" also. Even professional cryptozoologists. There's something here for everybody.

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  14. That looks like a giant eel and i have said it all along. Nessie cant be anything else. My work is done here now as i believe i know the identity of Nessie, so no need for further study anymore 4 me. I believe we will always have a Nessie as for the huge amounts of eels in Loch ness and 1 or 2 will always grow to giant sizes. I have enjoyed this blog but im now conviced a giant eel is the culprit, so i bid farewell 2 you all. Take care lads.

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    1. You won't stay away. I've been frustrated myself and said I was done with all this LNM stuff, but it draws me back. This is not something to easily walk away from when it has occupied most of your life. It's an addiction or an obsession, ask Roland about it. Even the skeptics can't leave it alone. You'll be back.

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    2. My wife thinks I'm nuts because I sit staring at the Loch Ness webcams in the evening haha!

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    3. Well these new webcams are of better resolution and closer to the loch, hopefully something concrete will show up someday. When they capture something poking its's head and neck out, followed by a back or humps, they will have proved their value.

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    4. About forty years ago I was on a family holiday with my wife and young son. When we were visiting Urquhart Castle there were a lot of tourists there also. My wife said to me "out of all these people you are the only silly buggar looking at the water" and I remember saying something like "well you never know what might surface for a couple of seconds".

      Forty years on and I am still looking.

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    5. The plesiosaur anal fold photo didnt convince you that it might be other possibilities?

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    6. Is there a plesiosaur proctologist in the house! LOL

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  15. I enquired at the Daily Record in Glasgow, but nothing in the archives. There must be a full uncropped picture somewhere ...

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  16. John Alvarado, well you can never say never pmpl but i have my answers. I believe it can only be a giant eel, only my opinion of course. Talking of opinions i sense most photo's or video's off the new webcams wont be shown 2 the public? What is the point of having them on the loch if we cant see the results? Take care all and nice getting involved in these blogs on a legend of a story. Farewell.

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    1. I don't understand why video of the monster wouldn't be shown. This would only validify it's existence and would be good for tourism and the local economy. After all that is the main purpose of the cams, monster or not.

      Farewell and goodbye then.

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    2. Bye Gezza. It's been emotional ;)

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    3. Kyle Titt erton, farewell :-)

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  17. There was a recent sonar hit at Lake Champlain that's very interesting. I still believe any breakthroughs at LN will come from sonar rather than photos. Barring that, I continue to use the John MacLean sighting as a reference when considering what might be swimming around the Loch. Until proven otherwise, my best guess is that MacLean described the real creature (whatever that truly is).

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    1. Here it is:

      https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/watch-lake-champlain-monster-spotted-on-sonar/

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    2. Me thinks we doth protest too much!

      https://www.coasttocoastam.com/article/nessie-purists-petition-for-webcam-reports-to-be-stricken-from-official-record/

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    3. That's the one, John. Now I wonder what it could be . . .

      Sorry for taking this O/T, but the researcher there has made some questionable claims in the past. As to the sonar data itself, I've not read any follow-up yet.

      I hope there's some meaty sonar data from Loch Ness that Roland is able to delve into in the future.

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    4. Ron; agreed on the MacLean sighting. There's a clue I think can tell if a sighting is believable. That's if the witness describes countershading, a type of camouflage with a dark back and light/white belly often found in aquatic animals (penguins, orcas, dolphins, many fish). It's not really the kind of detail you'd invent imo, unless one is a hoaxing marine biologist!

      (Ps: color varies between individuals so all won't necessarily have it)

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    5. Ken, good point. Dinsdale noticed a splotch on the flank of his creature via binoculars (?), which wasn't picked up by his camera, a detail that's been ignored by skeptics of his sighting who think he filmed a boat.

      Final time, re: MacLean. I don't know what he saw, but based on nothing more than reading the reports and Roland's discourse, it seems like the best choice. If the conversation turns to eels or the Gray object, et al, I'm okay with that. We're all just trying to figure it out.

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  18. Well then, if it is a large or giant eel, so be it. The only question is, how big was it. I guess we'll never know for sure.

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  19. Agree on webs..i wud like to see anything filmed to judge for myself! It's all bout opinions.. Nobody is right or wrong.. Same as sonar contacts.. One expert tells u one thing and another tells u summit else!! Where does that leave people who don't understand them?? Cheers

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  20. Recent sonar readings in Loch Ness we were told by the sonar people cudnt be shoals of fish! Same was said recently of a huge sonar target they thought was an ancient shark in the ocean! A week later they said it was after all a huge shoal of mackeral!! So either a shoal of fish can give off theses dense sonar targets or they can't... Which one?? ?

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    1. Good sonar easily differentiates between schools of fish and large marine animals..

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    2. Does it?? So why did Craig Wallace at Loch Ness say it was too far down to be a shoal of fish?... And the shark incident I mentioned was picked up with top sonar equipment and the people in the know said it was a lone creature only to change their minds within a week to a shoal of mackeral!.. Cheers

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    3. ... And Loch Ness does not have "large shoals of fish". And the sonar contact would look different. And the boat at Fort Augustus would be very familiar with large shoals of fish if there were any.

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    4. How would a large water tank show up on sonar Steve?

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    5. Are you still peddling that water tank nonsense, Roy? Give it a rest. A dumped water tank floating in mid-loch and fooling all those sonar equipped boats? Look, you dump a plastic water tank and one of two things happens. It floats on the surface or it sinks to the bottom. You claim so-and-so said this and that. I am not buying it, someone is lying to someone. Like Nessie, we want proof, perhaps a photograph of the corner of the tank floating with a pipe sticking out. A nice hump and neck picture. LOL!

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    6. How could a sonar hit distinguish the target as a prehistoric shark?

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    7. Not to mention the object that sonar detected wasn't there later on?

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    8. I agree, Steve. I have never heard of shoaling in Loch Ness or seen any photos of such a thing.

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    9. Maby..a frill shark made it into the loch..sharks do travel many miles into fresh water at times..usually bull sharks..but the dorsal fin is a big problem.Are you sure roy, that the good sonar didn't mistake a plesiosaur for an ancient shark?

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    10. Poofy only 95% lol.. Only go on what the article said.. Point is the people in the know cudnt work out if it was a single creature or a shoal.. In the end it was a shoal!! So if they don't know.. We certainly don't lol

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    11. Mistake a plesiosaur for a shark? No one mentioned plesiosaurs, Poofy. Why don't you give us the link to this shark/shoal article so others can judge.

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    12. Never a dull moment with our new friend Poofy. It's OK, I'll go along for the ride.

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    13. Its okay roland..I mentioned a plesiosaur because thats one of the possibilities of whatever is living in the loch.i also believe that its amphibias and vsry good sonar does not mistake shoals of fish for " prehistoric" sharks..lol

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  21. No need for the nastiness lol..u might not believe a water tank went into the loch.. But I do.!! !. It was actually a serious question? What wud it look like on sonar? What do inanimate objects look like?? I don't know that's why I asked!!.. Oh at least u seem to think sumone did actually tell me now...Unlike last year when you said I made it up to get at Mr Feltham!!!! Things are looking up!! !! Lol.. . Cheers

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    1. That's the ticket Roy! Don't let anything fluster you, it's all in fun and conviviality. When I first came here, every little thing set me off. I was a hated and reviled man. I'm not as bad as I used to be. That's what probably drove me to drinking. LOL

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    2. Quite simple, water tanks do not float around at a depth of 500ft.

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    3. No hate my friend, we're all pals here :)

      I just cant reconcile it as a static object if its completely gone when the boat next cruises over it. Its the same as our beloved Nessie, lets see some proof??

      Besides, that is not the only sonar hit recorded in the Loch.

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    4. If the water tank contained dirty water and the water pipe that comes out of the water tank was flexable Black pvc pipe, the decomposing gases inside the water tank would constantly expell flagellants which could propel the black pvc pipe in a serpentine motion= loch ness monster!!

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    5. This water tank theory gets dafter the more it is talked about.

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    6. Oh boy... Great, another theory...The Loch Ness Water Tank Monster!

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    7. I have a feeling this tank theory could actually hold some water.

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    8. Knock!, knock! Vocabulary Police here, looking for a... Poofy. In violation of improper use of "flagellants" To wit: The term flagellants does not denote gases in any form. Flagellants are people who whip themselves to atone for a perceived sin or transgression. Penalty imposed: twenty lashes with a wet noodle.

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    9. I assume that is an intended pun, Pete.

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    10. Guilty as charged, indeed it was. I accept my punishment with huge Grace. She goes to weightwatchers with my sister LOL


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  22. Oh.. and I didn't say it was dumped in the loch.. I was told it rolled down into the Fort augustus canal! ! So my thinking is is that if ur right and it is sitting on the bottom then what would it show up on the boats sonar ...The boats who use the canal...Would it be a similar image to the to the sonar contacts obtained near Invermoriston?? I asked Mr feltham cus he seems to be bit clued up sonar....cheers

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    1. The canal is nowhere near the point of the sonar contact. A water tank that drops into the canal is a hazard to shipping and must be removed ASAP. Not a problem since it will float and just be pulled back to the canal shore. This tank story is ... a ... non ... starter!

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  23. And I agree.. A water tank with a pipe sticking up wud make a good foto... On a par with ur Jonathon bright photo LOL

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  24. And if ur still saying Im making up the story then it's simple.. The person who told me knows Mr Feltham and Mr Feltham know him!! I'm not into name dropping on social media but if Mr Feltham wants to drop me an e mail I will tell him who told me!!

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    1. I don't think that is necessary. It is a bullshit story.

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  25. Maybe not necessary but would be nice to proove I'm not a liar which you said on here 12 months ago... Water off a ducks back to me but when I was with my daughter it wasn't nice tut tut! Ok last message on the subject... Sonar or webcams... Its webcams for me lol. .cheers

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    1. Webcam for me too Roy. But it's got to be incontrovertible, no blob or smudge on the water. Hope Eoin make the winning sighting. Poor guy, he's taken a s$&t load of flak over this. That wound vindicate him.

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  26. Regarding Ronald Mackenzies sonar contact, I spoke to several sonar experts at the time, people who have worked with sonar all their working life. They all said that it is one solid object, not a shoal. One described it as "a classic single target". Even the manufacturers of the sonar agreed with that.
    That's good enough for me.
    The speculation occurred when media and none experts raised the question, .. could it be a shoal of fish? That question quickly became 'it could be a shoal of fish'.
    I find that if you don't know enough about a subject its always best to find the people who do know and as them... Oh, and then listen to what they say.
    One single target.
    Loch Ness does not have shoals of fish.

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  27. I totally agree Steve. Sonar experts are exactly that, experts. They have umpteen years of quality experience so there's no point arguing with them in my humble opinion.

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    1. Pete, i wonder what a sinking log would look like on sonar?

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    2. I mean how do you differentiate between an animal sonar hit and lets say a large tree trunk sinking? Would they look the same or would they be different?

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    3. Probably like a solid object and not a shoal of fish. These experts would never say that it was an exact this or that. I would still take their analysis over an armchair experts opinion though. I don't recall any sonar technician ever saying that any of their "hits" were actually of the LNM There's no problem asking questions either way I suppose.

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    4. Yup, that's why I hardy ever comment on sonar hits. What the hell do I know about sonar, I'm a landlubber! Leave it up to the experts or people in the know. Very diplomatically said Pete.

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  28. It is confusing indeed. What we are saying is we cant make out if these hits are a living breathing animal or what size they actually are.

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    1. I think if you hear a so-called "expert" say:
      "It's a plesiosaur! 100% I promise you!"
      then a big warning bulb should go off in your head. Like Pete said above: Real experts say something a lot more cautious like "it could be a living animal... maybe." Because they know the uncertainties of the method.
      There is a more advanced type of sonar called 3-D sonar which can actually show you what the object is and what size it is. I suspect 3D is more expensive though!

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    2. Paleontologists are experts in their field and all the ones I've listened to all say plesiosaurs are very unlikely or impossible to be extant in today's world. Listen to them. Although, wasn't there a recent story about evidence that plesiosaurs, which were marine reptiles, also were able to survive in freshwater, giving credence to the theory that what is in Loch Ness could be a plesiosaur of sorts. Meh, don't think so.

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    3. Any paleontologist who says plesiosaur very unlikely is an expert in their field of ignorance..if you look at all the sightings around the world which see a long necked full bodied 4 flippered beastie then you would realize just how stupid most academics are. Research the Navy sub Alvin sighting of a full plesiosaur at 5000 feet down near the bahamas( i think) by 2 distinguished naval officer scientists who stood behind their report! Also @ mysteriousaustralia.com has the many Hawksbury river sighting reports of very large plesiosaur type animals, the people.call " long necks" and also the aboriginal carvings in stone on hawksbury river of plesiosaurs!plus the pensacola attack by an apparent plesiosaur on some swimmers..of all the possibilities of the lochness monster plesiosaur type animals are near #1.

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    4. You're right, John Alvarado: it seems that there are plesiosaur fossils in a complex of fluvial freshwater deposits of the mid-Cretaceous in Morocco, which gives reason to think that they could also have been common in freshwater.

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0195667122001744

      https://www.sci.news/paleontology/freshwater-plesiosaurs-11047.html

      Greetings.B

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    5. Never heard about the Alvin incident, interesting. Yes, I Googled it and there are stories and articles. I would consider a living plesiosaur more likely in the deeps of the ocean than in Loch Ness.

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    6. Nice little article about the Alvin encounter and the possibility of the creature being a plesiosaur. Jacques Cousteau and Thor Heyerdahl also claimed to have seen large unknown creatures during their voyages and expeditions...
      https://pinebarrensinstitute.com/cryptids/2018/8/18/cryptid-profile-the-dsrv-alvin-plesiosaur

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  29. Talking of experts and experienced people u av to say Mr Raynor is up there with experience and he wasn't too excited about these sonar contacts if I remember rightly and Mr harmsworth came on here and told us sonar doesn't give u a size of the object... So where does that leave us ?? And lots of sonar contacts I've seen ie Marcus Atkinson are more streaky or smudged not like the cruise loch ness one which looks like a block!! It's all about opinions and I know wat I think . Cheers

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    1. Dick Raynor is a Skeptic, he's gonna toe the skeptic line. Plus he's a boat operator and I would imagine is well versed and experienced with sonar. Nothing short of a carcass on a slab would sway him. Well, maybe a good picture would. But then he would try to take it apart and say it was photoshop or CGI. LOL

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  30. Think we all after the same thing.. The truth... Think sum people need to realise just cus u don't believe in every bit of evidence doesn't mean ur a skeptic!!!!!! !!! 90 % of the evidence is rubbish but it's the other 10% I'm interested in! It's all bout opinions.. Nobody is right or wrong! Trouble is with sum people ya can't have a different opinion to them! I'm suspicious of the Invermoriston sonar contacts but don't mean I'm suspicious of others! The Atkinson one was impressive and so are others like operation deepscan!! It's Al about ridding out the rubbish and look at what's left.. My humble opinion anyway... Cheers

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    1. Exactly the same sentiment can be applied to religion, your guess is as good as the popes, we none of us know for sure, we all have the same evidence to ponder over and draw our own likely lists and bull lists. No amount of tub thumping for one belief or the other will change a single thing. The correct answer to both mysteries is whatever the correct answer turns out to be, & no amount of wishful thinking or campaigning, or preying will change a thing.
      But just for the record & with no real concern as to what others thing about them, I think the series of sonar contacts obtained by cruise loch ness over the last couple of years are the best pieces of evidence for something big and mysterious that I have ever seen.

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    2. Totally agree none of us are going to agree on everything! All about opinions! Least we can have a different opinion without any nastiness like some people lol hand on heart I don't believe these sonar contacts are animate but that doesn't mean I'm right.. I'd love to be wrong actually.. I was skeptical for my own reasons then I think the good folk of Fort augustus made my mind up!!.. Cheers

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    3. Well, roy, as said here already, your theory presents too many problems - which you haven't bothered to address.

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    4. 1.. Why bother addressing anything with sumone who called me a liar.. 2..why bother with sumonone who says IBC watertanks will float!!!!!! and 3..i had my doubts bout these contacts even before the water tank story was told to me !. Cheers

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    5. 1. Someone is being economical with the truth,either about a tank or trying to connect it to those sonar contacts miles away. 2. Ever considered an *empty* tank? 3. And what made you doubt them before tanks turned up?

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    6. 1..why wud a good honest person make up a story?.. 2...IBC tanks come in metal cages... 3..i addressed this in previous posts at the time and even predicted another sonar hit wud come soon in same area... and it did couple weeks later ! !!!

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    7. Okay, roy, for the avoidance of doubt, tell us exactly what this unknown person said to you. No omissions, no additions, just everything they said to you and nothing else so that we all know where we stand.

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    8. Unknown?? . Doubt?? He isn't unknown and no doubt in what he told me! And I've seen plenty of cruise loch ness sonar contacts in last 20 years but never seen a flurry in a short space of time of so many and all near the bottom or on the bottom.. Summit not right! To me it's as if summit is sitting on the bottom drifting about! And I know they have had more similar contacts since and all strangely near the bottom! Fair enough u think these contacts are monsters but I don't... so leave it there!! I think cruise loch ness do get good sonar contacts that cud be large creatures.. But not these.. Cheers

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    9. Right, so you can't even do the simple thing and tell us verbatim what they said. They are still unknown to *us* and therefore it remains in *doubt*!

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    10. I've already told you what he said!!!! It just seems you don't wanna believe it.. That's fair enuf.. You don't... I do! I will try and get more info on my next trip lol... Cheers

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  31. To be fair to Dick, I've heard him say often that he would like to be proven wrong, same with Adrian Shine. He has an open mind, just wants concrete evidence, like the rest of us, even though us believers are pretty sure something is there based on the body of evidence.

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